Highlight: Agnes, again

[Deleted]

Dutifully reviewing this episode, finally having watched it.

Okay, the good things first: I love Agnes in this episode, she's the absolute highlight! Love the way she tells off Bert - "nobody answers the phone except numero uno!" That cracks me up!!

I also love what we learn about her - who would ever have thought that Agnes was such a naughty girl in college? Busiest seven years of her life LOL that was very funny, and I was quite as shocked as Maddie: "Agnes has a past!" LOL

And the final scene was hot. Finally in this episode, they both look like their normal gorgeous selves that scene was flirty, suggestive, sexy. Unfortunately, it doesn't stand alone - they have that history that makes it hard for me to believe that especially Maddie would act like this. But, just for the sake of argument, let's say she did it because she wanted David back. As we all know, it lead to nowhere, and that's what makes it pointless for me

The beginning: okay, I could still buy that David was going back to his earlier party life. But Maddie all cheerful and jolly? Seriously, that scene makes me cringe, and not because of the pals speech. Here I did Maddie wrong by the way - she didn't play a mind game here. I really think that in that moment she said they were pals, she really meant it. I don't see any hint that she was hurt, disappointed or waiting for David to object. Nothing.

She started to think about it later, when she talked to Agnes. "Did you ever call them other names, like friends, pals?"

The ladder talk, on the other hand, was a really nice scene, and a hopeful one: you could think that she had made up her mind and didn't want them to be "over", and neither did he, and for a wonderful moment we could have hoped again when they were heading out for dinner. Again, the phone cut them off!!

What else? Ah, the scene at the bar. At first I thought they were copying the awesome alley/bar scene from Gunfight, but then - suddenly Maddie was clinging to David like a scaredy chicken? Are we supposed to believe that after years of experience she has gained now, countless times she has been bearly killed, threatened with guns etc etc, she gets scared by that pool bar?

So - much to and fro in this episode, like they were trying to give us the is-you-is-or-is-you-ain't feeling back, but for me it doesn't work. Sue keeps telling me that people change, and of course they change or let's say develop (not fundamentally change their characters though IMO). That's why it doesn't work for me to just act like we're in season 2 again, all flirty and sexy.

[Addison's girl]

not fundamentally change their characters though IMO

Call me dumb but I don't understand how their basic characters changed? People grow older the world gets to them and they change. David started changing at the end of season 3 he became less of a jerk and more of a man. And by the end of season 4 he was more responsible less of a jokster and yes more cynical. So season 5 just continues his metamorphosis. And yes Maddie did seem to be more relaxed with David's exploits in season 5 but after all she probably learned that fighting with him did no good anyway.So answer me what is fundamentally different about their characters? Did they suddenly turn gay or become killers or thieves or what?

[Deleted]

Oh no, I surely won't call you dumb - you're far from that you're just stubborn and deliberately ignoring what I keep repeating LOL

Okay, so for the millionth time about David: I agree that a person, when put through hell, can change, harden their heart, become more careful before opening up, becoming less indulgent or less willing to take crap from anybody etc. But what I don't believe is that a "good" person turns into a mean heartless one, abandoning the person they love in their darkest hour of despair and need and deliberately hurting them - which is what David does throughout season 5, as you keep saying. The only way he would maybe do that was if he didn't love Maddie anymore, and I don't believe that. That is the fudnamental change I'm talking about.

As for Maddie: I can buy that she has come to the conclusion that trying to change David would do no good, and that she maybe tries to just let him be, for the sake of not getting all worked up about his escapades. Although that would require a lot of self control and when ever has Maddie been able to control her temper? Not that I could think of. If you're a hot-blooded, easily inflammable person or a quiet, calm, self-controlled one is something you can't "decide" to be, I think.

Besides: even if she were capable of that kind of self-control - in the scene when David comes in hungover, does Maddie look like she's just controlling herself and deliberately trying to play it light? Does she look like she's just suppressing her anger because it won't lead anywhere? Does she talk through gritted teeth? Well, to me she looks like she's perfectly fine and at ease with the situation and David's behavior, she's all cheerful and jolly, and she really has no reason to be.

So, that for me is a fundamental change of character which I don't find believable.

The only moment where they both seem to be themselves, also in the light of what they have gone through, is the ladder speech IMO.

[imdavidsgirl]

Dec 21, 2012 4:08:50 GMT -5 @sandra said:

Oh no, I surely won't call you dumb - you're far from that you're just stubborn and deliberately ignoring what I keep repeating LOL

Okay, so for the millionth time about David: I agree that a person, when put through hell, can change, harden their heart, become more careful before opening up, becoming less indulgent or less willing to take crap from anybody etc. But what I don't believe is that a "good" person turns into a mean heartless one, abandoning the person they love in their darkest hour of despair and need and deliberately hurting them - which is what David does throughout season 5, as you keep saying. The only way he would maybe do that was if he didn't love Maddie anymore, and I don't believe that. That is the fudnamental change I'm talking about.

As for Maddie: I can buy that she has come to the conclusion that trying to change David would do no good, and that she maybe tries to just let him be, for the sake of not getting all worked up about his escapades. Although that would require a lot of self control and when ever has Maddie been able to control her temper? Not that I could think of. If you're a hot-blooded, easily inflammable person or a quiet, calm, self-controlled one is something you can't "decide" to be, I think.

Besides: even if she were capable of that kind of self-control - in the scene when David comes in hungover, does Maddie look like she's just controlling herself and deliberately trying to play it light? Does she look like she's just suppressing her anger because it won't lead anywhere? Does she talk through gritted teeth? Well, to me she looks like she's perfectly fine and at ease with the situation and David's behavior, she's all cheerful and jolly, and she really has no reason to be.

So, that for me is a fundamental change of character which I don't find believable.

The only moment where they both seem to be themselves, also in the light of what they have gone through, is the ladder speech IMO.

IMO i beleive losing that baby changed thme both drastically. I think in real life you do change. After 5 years maddie would be wasting her time ascting like the way Maddie did yellign thowing thigns, slapping david ,it woiuld have been done. they both changed each other in some ways good and some ways bad. When you meet someone of course you are sure of how you are and your beliefs but spending 5 years together your views change on things and maybe act a bit differanly , they learned to accept each others faults over the years more and more i think . and you have to come to a point where if maddie wanted david to stop coming in late just saying as example and he never did after 5 years youd sound like a broken record. I think she learned to be more open to how he was and accept it and know some things he will never change.she would have looked dumb taking his tie and tryign to choke him lets say still now 5 years later after they had their relationship and loss of baby. Well its JMO

[Addison's girl]

Oh I agree! After everything they had been through together I don't think she could have treated him the same. And she knew that yelling and getting mad just aggravated her and he enjoyed it. She was mad though he could tell by the flaring of her left nostril? LOL

[imdavidsgirl]

Dec 21, 2012 19:04:37 GMT -5 Addison's girl said:

Oh I agree! After everything they had been through together I don't think she could have treated him the same. And she knew that yelling and getting mad just aggravated her and he enjoyed it. She was mad though he could tell by the flaring of her left nostril? LOL

Yes i agree Sue she was mad not just screaming slamming doors and choking him mad. He knew she was a bit mad and he was trying to get her madder too LOL But hse leanred to control it better and yes her left nostril was flaring AHHAA

[Deleted]

David was trying to provoke her, agree. But honestly, where do you see she was mad?? We have seen Maddie suppressing anger, many times. You could always tell. Here I see nothing of this, maybe you can give me a hint?

[Addison's girl]

When he was telling her how he knew her you can see she was mad...straightening her papers not looking at him etc. Then she finally snapped at him I'm not a car radio David LOL

[Deleted]

Of course, as usually he achieved his aim: to make her mad! She got mad only when he had bugged her again and again and again. What I meant was that she was not mad at the fact that he came in late, hungover etc. etc.

[Addison's girl]

I guess she was use to it. She wasn't angry caused she changed the meeting lol She said she saw that toga party look in his eyes. What I don't understand is why after Yuk they still were not a steady couple? weird..

[Deleted]

I still don't think it was Maddie-like to be that cheerful, but anyway, agree about it's weird they are apparently not a couple here (as weird as not having moved in at the beginning of Womb). So you think there is a missing episode between Yuk and this one, right? What do you think happened?

[Addison's girl]

I don't know! Only thing I can think of is that she started the same Where is this relationship going David and in his head he didn't know, wasn't sure of what she wanted of what he wanted. (They couldn't have real sex because she had just lost a baby so he didn't know how to act and neither did she) Maddie was still angry over how he treated her in Yuk and then they had a fight about something stupid which put a wedge between them because both were still raw and hurt over everything that happened. They told each other it was better to take a break in order to salvage their working relationship. Maddie was nervous he would skip out to Virigina; David still had Chicago in the back of his mind and during the argument Maddie had mentioned selling the agency. So David was hurt and angry and reverted back to his old Addison party boy ways while Maddie threw herself into the business and realized she needed to loosen up if she had any hope of winning him back. And even though David still loved her he didn't want to because he was all screwed up inside and started to believe what Maddie used to believe that they were too different and it would never work out. At times the love for her welled up inside of him but he pushed it back with cynicism instead of jokes. Fast forward a few months to COM.

[Deleted]

Hmmmm that setting sounds quite plausible to me, I can buy that. If they had explained things that way, it would make COM at least a little more believable. We never have any timeframe mentioned in season 5, do we? God, they screwed up so much! In a situation like this you can't just skip forward a few months and miss the chance to explain the characters' development!! Same as after the big bang - they should have shown us at least bits of that month; this would have been much fairer towards Maddie - maybe I would be softer towards her season 4 escapades...

[Addison's girl]

well in your new story hopefully you will explain her confusion. PaP has tried to do it many times in our fanfic!

[Deleted]

You explained it quite well, and I'm sure those are the reasons for her confusion! But you know what my problem is - the bits we actually see on the show are not really enough for me, you know? In my new story she will be confused too, but not to the extent of negativity she displays in TTTM. But then, my story will kick in earlier, when she's just starting to feel uncomfortable.

I do think her insecurity increased over the weeks they spent together, what do you think?